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Atheisteye.com/ > Forums > Evolution vs Creationism > The old evolution/creationism debate
 
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solidsquid
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    09/01/05 at 09:02 AMReply with quote#16

Quote:
Originally Posted by faith_diver

  If you wish to argue about the BB then that is fine, But this is not a debate about that, You said that that there is evidence for the BB AS WELL!!! I don't really care at the moment. If you wish to argue about that later that is fine, but when you said AS WELL you implied that you also had evidence for evolution. That is what I want to hear!



You're the one who claimed that cosmology's (in this case the big bang theory's) validity was essential to the veracity of evolutionary theory.  You proceeded to discuss cosmology so I rebutted.  I've been trying to talk about evolution, you insisted with cosmology. 

As for biological evolution, what area do you wish to discuss?
faith_diver
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    09/01/05 at 04:35 PMReply with quote#17

  I only meant the time involved. And as far as I know, that is how evolutionists say that we and all matter came to be. Why should I bother attacking the the problem when I can simply remove it at the root? If the BB falls under cosmology and cosmology has nothing to do with evolution then you are saying that the BB has nothing to do with evolution. Okay, if the BB has nothing to do with evolution then that is obviously not how we got here! So how did we?

solidsquid
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    09/01/05 at 10:16 PMReply with quote#18

Quote:
Originally Posted by faith_diver

  I only meant the time involved. And as far as I know, that is how evolutionists say that we and all matter came to be. Why should I bother attacking the the problem when I can simply remove it at the root? If the BB falls under cosmology and cosmology has nothing to do with evolution then you are saying that the BB has nothing to do with evolution. Okay, if the BB has nothing to do with evolution then that is obviously not how we got here! So how did we?



Go back and reread my posts carefully and understand what I said and why the contingency is fallacious.  Even if modern cosmology is shown to be false, this does not necessarily affect biological evolution which is affirmed on its own independent evidence.
faith_diver
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    09/02/05 at 02:56 PMReply with quote#19

  Cosmology is NOT the point! The point is the time involved. But since you insist, If the BB which falls under cosmology is proven wrong then where did we come from?

solidsquid
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    09/02/05 at 06:47 PMReply with quote#20

Quote:
Originally Posted by faith_diver

  Cosmology is NOT the point!


That's what I've been saying but you insist on arguing it.

Quote:
The point is the time involved.

That still has nothing to do with the veracity of the Big Bang theory, even if your argument is one focusing on temporal aspects.

Quote:
But since you insist, If the BB which falls under cosmology is proven wrong then where did we come from?



I came from my mother, I don't know about you.  Humans or rather Homo sapiens most likely branched off from Homo heidelbergensis which diverged from Homo erectus.  Contrary to what many thought, we did not diverge from the Neanderthal line, they diverged, most likely, from the heidelbergensis line as well.
faith_diver
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    09/07/05 at 08:18 PMReply with quote#21

  You mentioned Homo Erectus ( why would anyone name anything that? ) hose are just normal human skeletons with arthritis! You claim he is slowly coming up from an ape. No, he has arthritis and is slowly coming down.

Also you call us Homo Sapiens. That means the wise man. Now they call us Homo Sapiens Sapiens or the Wise Wise man! Do you sense a little bit of ego there? Hey, the bible told us that would happen!

solidsquid
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    09/08/05 at 11:27 AMReply with quote#22

Quote:
Originally Posted by faith_diver

  You mentioned Homo Erectus ( why would anyone name anything that? )



It's latin for "upright man".  Don't be so sophomoric.


 

Quote:
hose are just normal human skeletons with arthritis! You claim he is slowly coming up from an ape. No, he has arthritis and is slowly coming down.


A skeleton of someone who has severe arthritis:




and a skeleton of Homo erectus:




The morphological differences are obvious even to a layman.


Quote:
Also you call us Homo Sapiens. That means the wise man. Now they call us Homo Sapiens Sapiens or the Wise Wise man! Do you sense a little bit of ego there? Hey, the bible told us that would happen!



It's called taxonomy for classification purposes.  You read too much into the names.  Some scientific names are called for who discovered them or where.  Some scientists use their fictional characters in naming items such as the Sonic Hedgehog gene (Shh) or Homo heidelbergensis (Heidelberg Man).
faith_diver
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    09/08/05 at 03:42 PMReply with quote#23

 


 


Quote:
The morphological differences are obvious even to a layman
.

Okay,

help me out, what "morphological" differences then?

 

 

 

solidsquid
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    09/12/05 at 07:20 PMReply with quote#24

Quote:
Okay,

help me out, what "morphological" differences then?

 

The most prevalent morphological difference between Homo erectus and Homo sapiens would be the overall size and shape of the body structure.  Going down into more detailed parts the first recognizable difference is the skull.

 

erectus has a very distinct brow ridge called a suborbital torus, not to mention the distinctive jaw and the shape of the teeth are intermediary between Australopithecines and Homo sapiens.  The cranial case of erectus is only about 70-75% that of anatomically modern humans.

 

Erectus had much denser leg bones than we do as well as the fossils indicating that most were on average around 5’ – 5’ 5” in height.  A more narrow pelvis than sapiens and long femoral necks.

 

faith_diver
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    09/12/05 at 08:08 PMReply with quote#25

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidsquid

 

 

 

erectus has a very distinct brow ridge called a suborbital torus, not to mention the distinctive jaw and the shape of the teeth are intermediary between Australopithecines and Homo sapiens.  The cranial case of erectus is only about 70-75% that of anatomically modern humans.

 

Back in those days, people were living to be 3 or 4 hundred years old. The bones on your eyebrow ridged NEVER stop growing. You can see it start to stick out in people 70, 80 years old. People three hundred years old would have BIG eyebrow ridges! And the head would elongate because of all the muscles constantly pulling on the back of the head. As for the teeth, give me a source if you do not mind.

Quote:

Erectus had much denser leg bones than we do as well as the fossils indicating that most were on average around 5’ – 5’ 5” in height.  A more narrow pelvis than sapiens and long femoral necks.

 

I need a little time to do research on that.

Deano
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    09/12/05 at 08:53 PMReply with quote#26

Quote:
Originally Posted by faith_diver

Back in those days, people were living to be 3 or 4 hundred years old. The bones on your eyebrow ridged NEVER stop growing. You can see it start to stick out in people 70, 80 years old. People three hundred years old would have BIG eyebrow ridges! And the head would elongate because of all the muscles constantly pulling on the back of the head.



LOL, I blew snot out of my nose with that one!

Three or four hundred years" yeah, that's the ticket!

Typical Hovindism
solidsquid
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    09/13/05 at 10:08 AMReply with quote#27

Quote:
Originally Posted by faith_diver
Back in those days, people were living to be 3 or 4 hundred years old. The bones on your eyebrow ridged NEVER stop growing. You can see it start to stick out in people 70, 80 years old. People three hundred years old would have BIG eyebrow ridges! And the head would elongate because of all the muscles constantly pulling on the back of the head.


LOL...there is NO evidence to support that age claim.  Genetics do not allow that to take place no matter the environment.  Are you going to pull out the old "there was more oxygen back then" line too?  Ask any anatomist or phsysiologist, your bones stop growing at around 18-21 years of age, even the skull (or brow ridge).  They don't "continue to grow".

Quote:
As for the teeth, give me a source if you do not mind.


Oh, now you want supporting material.  When will you provide your supporting materials?

Fine, go do some research:

Comparison of chimp, australopithecine and modern humans:

http://www.wsu.edu:8001/vwsu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/phychar/culture-humans-14fourteen.html

Focusing just on the teeth in a comparison between Homo erectus, modern humans and Australopithecines:

Dean, C., Leakey, M., Reld, D., Schrenk, F., Schwartz, G., Stringer, C. et al. (2001). Growth processes in teeth distinguish modern humans from Homo erectus and earlier hominins. Nature, 414, 628-631.

And other anatomical comparisons along with teeth:

Poirier, F. (1999) Understanding human evolution (4th ed.). Upper Saddle River: Prentice Hall.
faith_diver
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    09/14/05 at 05:00 PMReply with quote#28

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidsquid

LOL...there is NO evidence to support that age claim.  Genetics do not allow that to take place no matter the environment.  Are you going to pull out the old "there was more oxygen back then" line too?  Ask any anatomist or phsysiologist, your bones stop growing at around 18-21 years of age, even the skull (or brow ridge).  They don't "continue to grow".

Air bubbles in amber shows nearly a over 30% more oxygen than there is today. Also the layer of water above the atmosphere would have doubled, maybe even tripled air pressure! This would also help with the age difference. This also explains how the mighty Brontosaurus ( who had nostrils the size of a horse! ) could have even breathed! Explain that with your theory if you don't mind. It is a PROVEN fact that like your nose and ears ( which are really made of cartilage ) the eyebrow ridges DO NOT stop growing until you die! Even your other bones continue to grow as your muscles grow, ask any body builder. I am sorry but they most certainly do "continue to grow" whether you like it or not!

Deano
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    09/26/05 at 11:11 AMReply with quote#29

Quote:
Originally Posted by faith_diver
Air bubbles in amber shows nearly a over 30% more oxygen than there is today. Also the layer of water above the atmosphere would have doubled, maybe even tripled air pressure! This would also help with the age difference.


Yep, there would have been an age difference alright; like maybe a few minutes instead of hundreds of years! With a layer of water (which I assume you are implying a biblical firmament) the greenhouse effect would heat up the planet drastically and the increased atmospheric pressure would have make things worse; it would be like living in a pressure cooker! We sure wouldn't have had an ice age in that case.

As far as cartilage goes, I think it does continue to grow during a person's life. But you are forgetting one thing, hyaline cartilage decomposes rapidly (even for the creationist's time scale). It would have been long gone before fossilization could take place. That’s why we don’t find noses or ears on skeletons. Even with a shark skeleton all we find is the jaw and teeth because the rest of the body skeleton is cartilage.

Scientist can also determine how long a person back then lived by examining the bones. Most are under 40 years old, which also is the average age of modern apes. If people lived hundreds of years back then, we would find large necropolises because of the increased population that would have followed. We just find a skeleton here and there and evidence of small groups. Another thing you obviously are not aware of is that the picture of the Homo erectus skeleton solidsquid posted is that of a 10 year old known as Turkana Boy. Here is a profile of the brow ridge (which is bone by the way, not cartilage) of this 10 year old, not a 400 year old.

                   
Turkana Boy Homo erectus                      Homo Sapian adult skull
Cynic
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    09/27/05 at 12:47 AMReply with quote#30

Wow.  Let's try a different tack, since I'm out of my element on the science end -- compared to SolidSquid and Deano, anyway.

 

Faith Diver... why do you find it plausible that with the exception of a handful of people, the entire scientific community thinks all of what you're saying is utterly ridiculous?

 

Now, I'm not trying to use any sort of number or authority arguments here.   This isn't your David and Goliath stuff -- not even remotely analogous to a fair fight, or one theory against a community resistant to change.  There is no contest, no controversy.  Nothing.  Only crackpots and true believers think what you've been saying is true.  Crackpots because they're crackpots.  True believers because they can't acknowledge the doubt they know they have (but can't acknowledge).

 

So I'm just asking an innocent question with no idea that it proves anything in and of itself.  What is it that makes you think your sources are right, and EVERYONE ELSE is wrong?

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